Leonard Little, DT St. Louis Rams. Killed Susan Guttweiler while driving drunk at 0.19 level (that’s pretty drunk) and convicted for involuntary manslaughter — has a Super Bowl ring and is still playing even though he got a second DUI arrest 6-years after killing someone.
Michael Vick’s sentence ends today. Seeing as he has paid his debt — slightly less than two years in a federal pen, loss of a very lucrative (and time-limited profession) plus the ignominy of killing /gulp/ dogs. He should’ve killed a young mother it would’ve been easier for him. People should quit getting the vapors. They’re dogs — dogs ain’t people and any attempt at “dogs are better than some people” is animal rights PETA level thinking. Dogs don’t have souls and killing a dog for no reason — while very bad and indicative of some very bad things is NOT as bad as killing even one person. You could hunt chocolate labradors to extinction and it’s not as bad as killing ONE person. If you “think it is” — show me your scripture, philosopher, tradition, that say is it — make conservative arguments.
Do I think Michael Vick should play this year? Not really. But under the Leonard Little standard — he should play this year seeing as Little missed hardly any games and Vick has missed two whole seasons and really wouldn’t play much this year (unless the Longest Yard scenario is true!)
Let me reiterate… what Vick did was vile, bad, evil, etc. What it was NOT was on a par with even recklessly killing one human being.
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Amen.
I’ve been saying this for a couple of years now. What he did was horrible, but not really more horrible than some of the other stuff these guys get away with all the time. If he deserves all this harsh punishment, we’d better be ready to hand it out more often.
Then they should hand it out more often or take the pads off and treat them like uncivilized animals.
ryuku… I agree that punishments should be harsher. The NFL is a private entity (leaving aside issues of the public funding of stadiums for now) and as such I wish the public would hold them to a higher standard. Football fans — paying good money to see well-played football (and not necessarily well-lived lives) will pile in to see Vick play. The first 2-minute drill where he leads his team to victory and all will be forgiven.
If sports fans (indeed Americans in general) would be good fathers to their children and good husbands to their wives or even stick around then the Michael Vicks of the world would be irrelevant.
Not to cross-pollinate too much with a different sport, but judging from the several standing ovations Manny Ramirez got at Dodgers Stadium last Thursday, his first home game since coming back from suspension for cheating, I think the fathers and mothers are as demented as the children. Fortunately for my safety, my booing and chants of “CHEA-TER!!!” for each of his four at-bats were followed by huge cheers next batter (and former Tribester) Casey Blake. Yes, I know Manny’s a former Trribester, too, but he screwed the team with his selfish departure.
Ah yes, the old “other people are getting away with worse things so why don’t we let this one slide” logic. Not only should he not play they should get rid of the other thugs and criminals in the league as well (insert post Tom Landry Cowboys joke here). If they (NFL) won’t police their own profession (ostensibly manned by professionals) then who will? Of course the NFL is rapidly approaching WWE territory anyway so why should I care.
Concerning the post TL Cowboys, it was my beloved team’s behavior during those dark years that caused me to tell my boys that the one profession they could choose that would disappoint me would be a pro football player.
If they got rid of the thugs and criminals, I’m not sure who’d play. But I bet I’d enjoy watching it more.
I agree Outlaw. This is the thing: Back in the day it took heaven and earth for Lombardi to get Paul Hornung reinstated after he was caught gambling. Now Hornung never laid money down on a Packer game but what he was henious in views of the league and a lot of people and OHHH BOYEE did he disappoint Lombardi. And whats sad? Hornung was never the same again. The fact of the matter what Vick did was wayy worse than betting. He was the ring leader of something really immoral, and revolting. He spent too little time in prison and he hasn’t done enough to make me think he is capable of being a well adjusted member of society. I am disgusted. He shouldnt play again. Its funny people complain about Favre wanting to come back and here comes Mr. lets see dogs kill each other for money. Where are public standards anymore? I wouldn’t have Vick as my waterboy on my team.
I’m just holding the NFL to some standard. In today’s politically correct word a personal substance choice leading to the death of a real human being brings an 8-game suspension. The Vick punishment actually fits the crime (unless they had tied to prison gangs or some other RICO or organized crime thing).
He gambled and killed dogs — two years in prison. He’s done. There is nothing wrong with giving the guy a chance to do good and do well. Letting him do the thing he does best is not a bad thing either. Killing dogs is not a life offense and not irredeemable — under any system of justice ever used in the West. Hornung and Karas did one year and came back.
Where exactly did Vick slide? 20 years ago he’d gotten no time. 70 years ago no one would’ve blinked an eye except the 50 year old virgins in the Temperance League. He’s lost millions of dollars, 2 years in his prime, his reputation forever because no one knows how to really forgive anymore — especially for an animal. Now dogs are worth more than people. The problem is with the justice system and the NFL’s political correctness (obviously Vick has personal problems).
Vick should play. Little should be expelled — or have been suspended for 2-3 years — especially after his second DWI 6-years after he killed someone.
The NFL should be more worried about Vick’s gambling, than the dogs — if integrity of the game is the real reason for gambling laws. The PR stuff is all contractual. If Vick doesn’t want to be held to that standard of course, he can go play Arena League where the morals clauses are looser.
I’m with Outlaw. Floyd, you’ve made an excellent case for banning Little.
Yes, I guess that’s what I’m saying too. I’d rather see em all go.
F*ck Michael Vick.He is a convicted felon,and should never set foot on an NFL field.I’m surprised at you,Floyd.
There’s a law enforcement saying that is is better to shoot a person than a dog. People get upset when you kill a person sure, but they go absolutely apoplectic if you kill a dog. Even if it is the meanest, rabid, killer dog in the world.
As to Vick playing, I don’t really care . . . half the people playing professional sports are thugs anyway, so what difference does it make really.
He shouldn’t be playing again regardless. there needs to be a standard. Not a well he did two years. Lets forgive him. Sorry uh uh. What kind of role model is that? And what kind of person is he that he liked seeing that garbage? Outlaw is looking at it the way my hubby looks at stuff like this. The guy disgraced himself, he made a choice and did something that none of the rest of us would get off so lightly for. The fact that he will be welcomed back to the NFL is grotesque. And its not just the dog fighting its what surrounds it. A man who can watch that crap and enjoy it is someone who hides a very bad character. No amount of prison can change that.
Let me reiterate…what Vick did was vile, bad, evil, etc. What it was NOT was on a par with even recklessly killing one human being.
So a standard inconsistently applied should slouch toward the mean? How about condemning failing, instead of making the failing the standard?
Well, I probably wouldn’t want to take a date to a dog fight, but my Mexican friends have told me they are a lot of fun, and so are cockfights they say.
mexican
Awesome. THats really great Patrick. And that says a lot about your Mexican friends..and none of is complimentary. Action is character. If you take poor actions and make amoral decisions you have no character. people who go to Dog fights and watch dumb animals rip themselves apart for our enjoyment and then have no concept of why the rest of us find it vile have no character.
Floyd,Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot had souls too….so what?Poor wittle Michael Vick:let him go get a job at Wal Mart
Nice analogy Scott. So dogs are Michael Vick’s Jews and and urban professionals to his Pol Pot? I know you’re not a believer, but surely you’re not that obtuse to twist what I’m trying to say — even though you disagree.
Piece of shit
No really Scott, how do you feel about him?
Gee Floyd you’d think you’d know better by now. Ixnay on the Ogday thing.
@Tracy, I hope Threedonians are not ever my judge and jury if I ever get into trouble. The believers and the unbelievers alike don’t seem much into forgiveness, much less second chances. Odd for conservatives quite frankly (especially given that Vick’s already paid his debt).
@David Marcoe… the “slouch to the mean” is the kind of classroom reasoning that leads to the grinding up and spitting out of men each day in our prison system with policies made by people who are too hard or too soft because they have little to no experience of real people in real-world prison environments.
@ Threedonians: I’m done with this topic. And will have to agree to disagree on the larger point. Whether he will play or should play is up to the NFL. Under the Little standard he should play to be consistent or there should be a more exact policy in place. I won’t have any problem with him playing this year, but he’s in a contract world and if the NFL wants to ban him it’s their right to do so.
Floyd,I apologize…the shit was Michael Vick,not you ever…you are a friend
Re POS: I knew that Scott. I figure you’d come up with something cleverer for me.
The post come out of order sometimes
Scott, I don’t want to answer for Floyd, but the time stamps show that you weren’t responding to him, but “elaborating” on your previous post.
Athletes are entertainers, and paid well for it. He can get a job and contribute to society in whatever way he can, and God bless him. I don’t want to see him. And that means I can’t watch NFL games if he’s reinstated. I just don’t feel like seeing a millionaire felon—any millionaire felon—whooping it up on the highlights.
Really, how hard is it not to commit a felony?
Really, how hard is it not to commit a felony? — Well — not Michael Vick’s felony, but the main lesson from the Scooter Libby, Martha Stewart, Conrad Black persecutions is that it is a lot easier than it should be to commit a felony. I’ve been meaning to blog on over-criminalization some and haven’t gotten around to it.
I guess I don’t differentiate between the NFL and a Wal-Mart greeter. Wal-Mart hires more hard core felons than the NFL. Do you know how many pedophiles greet you at Target, Disneyland, etc.? That guy that calls you “boss” at the store… he’s been down for a stretch or two. What’s the difference? If any felon is going to be rehabilitated or restored to the community he needs to (within some reasonable limits) be allowed to use their talents to stay clean, pay back victims, etc. I’ve been to prisons and studied the matter as part of my career and my academic discipline. I’m a law and order guy, but our prisons are awful — better than most don’t get me wrong. Anyone that’s done prison time — if they’re not hard — has my sympathy. If Vick’s not remorseful he’ll screw up again. He has a huge opportunity to end up better than Steve McNair, for example. I hope he takes it — it won’t come around again. If he does the Steve Howe routine, it’ll come around.
Mike,I just want Floyd to know that.I didn’t want any Threedonians to misunderstand my comments.My bile is for Vick…
I’m with Floyd. He’s done his time, if a team wants to hire him, let him earn a living. If he violates the rules of the league, throw him out. However, I also don’t have a big issue with the league voting to not let him back in because of his felonious past.
I also agree with Floyd, that if they do decide to exclude him it will seem hypocritical in light of the many thugs past and present who were allowed to play. Seeing Michael Vick in a uniform won’t disgust me half as much as seeing Ray Lewis play.
And, I’m also with Floyd regarding forgiveness and a second chance. The guy paid the debt society asked him to pay. If he is contrite and leads a model life here on out, why make him suffer more? Pray he has truly learned the error of his ways and becomes a role model.
I do want to make one thing clear, if I were an NFL manager or coach, I would not have criminals and thugs on my team. I wouldn’t even tolerate celebrating in the end-zone or any sort of nonesense, calling attention to oneself during a game. I’d love to see someone in the modern game coach like Lombardi. I bet it would work. You could find enough top quality players who would love to play in that kind of a system and a lot of fans would support a team like that. I might let a convicted felon on my team if he had been a model prisoner, done his time honorably and was willing to adhere to my rules on and off the field going forward.
T.O. is a great example. The guy is sincerely one of the most talented football players I have ever seen yet I wouldn’t let him anywhere near a team I was a part of. With him it has to be all about him. Football is a team sport. There is no “T.O.” in “team.” Well, there’s a “t,” but there is no “o.” Well, I guess if you spelled, “football team” there is a “t” and an “o” in there, but you know what I mean.
A harder case for me is Pete Rose. The guy definitely broke the rules, and he knew he was breaking the rules, but I don’t honestly believe he ever threw any games to enhance his pocketbook and, Man! could that guy play the game! He is everything the Hall of Fame is about! But, he did bet on the sport, and that’s bad. Real bad. I still can’t make up my mind on Pete Rose. He definitely belongs in the Hall, but he definitely violated the rules…
Pardon the language: fuck Pete Rose. Trust me, as someone who still plays with the balls-to-the-wall, Ray-Fosse’s in front of my plate mentality Rose inspired in me as a kid, it took a long time to get to that sentiment. Talk about “T.O.” syndrome, Pete’s got in in spades, on perfect display around this time of year, too, when he sets up shop just outside of Cooperstown for his narcissistic, induction weekend pity-party side-show. The day he admitted he lied about his betting, in yet another display of vanity on Hall of Fame announcement day, attempting to take some spotlight away from Paul Molitor and personal fave Dennis Eckersley, Pete Rose lost all sympathy from this former fan. I know there are plenty of guys in the Hall of dubious character, but Pete made his bed. He also accepted the lifetime ban from baseball, so again, fuck him! I know, how do I really feel?
As for a coach like Lombardi, Rufus, I know it’s college, but look no further than the man who once played against a Lombardi-coached team: Joe Paterno. Sure, the off-field BS far too many of his players exhibited a couple years ago admittedly works against the case, but you still have many more kids who want to play for him and his style of coaching: make them men first and quality players second.
Eric,
I agree on Paterno. My only beef, as you know, is he ought to let some young, up and comer have the job. Give some kid the shot he was given 4 decades ago. However, Paterno has always been a favorite of mine because of the number of his players who earn 4 year degrees. He has always put a strong emphasis on the “student” portion of “student athletes.”
Regarding Rose, you obviously know more about the man than I do, and that’s an excellent point about his agreeing to the ban. I had forgotten that. If he agreed to be excluded as part of his penance then he should man up, and shut up.
As long as kids want to play for JoePa, these days when it’s not even known how long he’ll be around (coach or man), and he’s got the program living up to the standards he set years ago, I still say it’s his decision when to step aside and make room for Urban Meyer (dammit, man, let me dream). Two Big 10/11 titles in the last four years, after a beyond dismal first half of the decade (Lion in Autumn, great read), more than earning it, too.
E.P.,
I agree it’s his decision, and I’ve written this before, but one element overlooked is that he either has too much ego to walk away, or too little confidence in the future of the program. I guarantee you his wife, kids, grandkids, great-grandkids would all like more of his time before he shuttles this mortal coil. Why is this different than Michael Jordan trying minor league baseball, then buying a team just so he could walk around in a uniform?
I really admire the greats who are able to walk away at their peak. It seems so hard for folks to give up the spotlight. Joe obviously cannot.
OK now Rufus… ‘fess up… how painful was it for you to agree with me 3 times in a row? You didn’t hear a rooster crow did you?
We’re all sinners to varying degrees. Without second and sometimes more chances we’d all stay at the bottom of whatever slag heap we’ve made for ourselves. Repentance and a clean heart is what matters. Christ said, “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”
You have no idea, Floyd. I’m soaking my hands in Palmolive right now, trying to cleanse away the sensation of typing those words.
Fritz,
Yes, and that’s the right Christian message, but I don’t think that’s always the right path when I’m responsible for other’s money, or property. I explain this to my employees when I fire someone they liked, who was not a model worker. “Hey, I liked Mary to, and if she needs help finding a new job, or even some money, I’ll help her out, but I don’t have the right to use the company’s money to support her if she is not able to do the job we are paying her for.”
I know a lot of people who are really charitable when it involves other people’s money and property. Isn’t that what we are accusing President Obama, Pelosi, Reid and Biden of? If folks want to insure the uninsured they can take some of their own money and contribute to a charity that does that. But no, those thieves want to take my money and force me to contribute.
It’s up to Michael Vick’s potential employers to make a business decision regarding their team and Vick. If he’s the right man for the job, give him a job. If he’s not, he’s not. But don’t make the decision because you feel sorry for him, or because he needs the money. NFL owners and coaches owe it to the fans and the other players to field the best team they can.
In a workplace scenario such as the situation “Mary” created for herself, the firing is most likely the best punishment that could be meted out. There are situations in which a stern lecture will work to make a course correction for an employee instead of termination. I’ve known of both type situations happening. One employee being cautioned over and over again and never coming to the realization that they need a midcourse correction or their job will disappear. In another case one good talk and the situation is rectified. I’m not speaking of being softhearted or of “situational ethics”. I’m speaking of fairness.
There was a man I worked with at the MGM that had not been at the right place at the right time, and lied in his logs to cover. When the VP called him in, he lied again. Needless to say, the VP fired him. The man was off for slightly less than a week, when he called the VP and asked if he could speak with him about the situation. The VP agreed and they spoke. The man pretty much poured out his soul to the VP, explaining his home situation et al, and admitted to the lies, pretty much putting himself at the mercy of the VP. After the meeting, the VP, whom I know very well, decided that the man should be “off” for an additional two weeks, and then come back to work in a probationary status. After he came back to work, his work was absolutely flawless and he turned out to be one of our best employees. In this case the midcourse correction turned out to be good for the employee and the company. I realize there are times and persons with whom this type of “punishment phase” will not correct anything, but this was one where the insight of the VP, coupled with the employee’s repentant spirit worked everything out for the best.
fritz,
I concur with both your examples. My only point is it’s not up to you, or the VP to spend MGM’s money unwisely. The VP made the right call, the guy turned himself around, and MGM got 40 hours of work for 40 hours of pay. My point was that a businessman or woman should not be in the habit of using wages as charity. I am charitable with my take home pay, but that’s because it is mine.
It really is very similar to the atrocities our Congresswomen and men are comitting. They are doing things with our money they would not do with their own.
Would not and most especially in the case of VP Il Douche, do not.
…the “slouch to the mean” is the kind of classroom reasoning that leads to the grinding up and spitting out of men each day in our prison system with policies made by people who are too hard or too soft because they have little to no experience of real people in real-world prison environments.
1. I haven’t argued against extenuating circumstances, acts of mercy, or discretion in punishment.
2. If you knew my opinions on prison reform, you might have been a little slower in making that statement.
3. I assumed you would give me the benefit of the doubt before saying I engaged in “classroom reasoning,” since I usually have more to say on a topic than I often post, to avoid becoming too long-winded or unfocused in my argumentation.
Forgiveness in the interpersonal sphere is praiseworthy, if it were mine or anyone else’s here to give, since most of us here are only distant observers giving an opinion on the situation. But you’re arguing for the application of those interpersonal standards to an organizational context, which doesn’t entirely translate.
Still, I would argue that things like drug charges, fighting, or doping are all things that are pardonable, given clear indications of contrition. But in Vick’s case, has he taken any personal responsibility? Does he show a penitent attitude? Has he made amends? You argue that because someone else who has done something more heinous has been allowed to play and that he suffered an obligatory punishment, he should be allowed in.
I would argue in all cases of compromised character, that a consistent standard of a player holding themselves to a higher character should be applied. As was said on this thread, the NFL is not a government institution and it’s purpose and underlying dynamics are not the same. Sports, going back to the Grecco-Roman standard (and reflected in a great many other cultures), is a physical, mental and aesthetic pursuit, interwoven with character. If that standard is to be upheld, then a line should be drawn. Does that eliminate mercy? No. It just goes to the heart of the subject that has been the intersection point of this whole discussion: the need for a clear and reasonable standard.
Who the hell said I was clever,Floyd…I defer to David Marcoe,who is more or less 100 times more intelligent than me
OK here is a question: Doesn’t killing animals in such a way, so cruelly lead to killing humans? Thats another issue. Vick is a sick bastard. Sorry but I forgive things like drug or alcohol abuse because they are illnesses. Breeding and raising animals for the soul purpose of what Vick was aiming is pure evil: Why what else does it lead and what else was he up to?
My thing is this: Dog fighting equals pulling wings off of flys and torching kittens for fun. Such people should be locked away until further notice. Human beings are better than that and I speak as a person who has a lot of deer blood on her hands. But to take enjoyiment out of doing this to dogs? Lighting them on fire when tghey didn’t win? Strangling them? Thats what Vick was into. Come on. Lets be honest here. That is some sick crap. Oh and lets not forget how they get their dogs ready for the show. Most of these lovely examples of humanity steal or “adopt” small dogs or softer animals so their Pitt Bulls can taste blood. Yes they steal people’s pets and kill them for their stupid little events. And we are supposed to forgive? This isn’t just a blood sport, its indifferent and inhuman. And people who show indifference should be ashamed of themselves.
I agree Stephanie. While Little’s crime was greater, I have to look at the intent of both men. Little’s crime was out of irresponsibility with tragic results, but it wasn’t his intent to kill anyone. He shouldn’t be allowed to play the game though. Vick’s intent was pure sadism. I think sometimes you have to focus on the intent and not just the crime, and I’m not talking about inside the court room. It’s not just about comparing human’s and dog’s lives and their worth, it’s what kind of person the criminal is also. Even tragic mistakes or lapses of judgement may be redeemable in the eyes of God, but someone sadistic such as Vick’s may not be because what he did was intentionally evil. Besides, with these dog fight rings, that’s hardly ever the only crime going on. Good people don’t attend these things.
Let me change that slightly to …
“but someone sadistic such as Vick may not be, because what he did was intentionally evil.
That’s a good way to look at it Matt.
Matt, you’re not turning into a sensitive, Hispanic, female jurist are you?
fritz, I don’t know a word of Spanish.
Matt, what I said was:
¿Mate, usted está no convirtiendo en un jurista sensible, hispanos, femenino está usted?
Sorry. Just checking out the “Bing Translator.”
I know it may be hard for someone not as (or admittedly perhaps too in my case) invested in Penn State to understand, but for Joe, though I won’t deny he has some (what great at any job doesn’t?), it’s the practical opposite of ego. He deeply and genuinely cares about his role as teacher, evidenced by turning down partial yet lucrative ownership with the Patriots early in his PSU head coaching career to a large chunk of his personal dough funding the PSU library, as well as the aforementioned instructor to his players. As he’s also said many times, what else does he know?
>>Why is this different than Michael Jordan trying minor league baseball, then buying a team just so he could walk around in a uniform?>>
A) The NCAA isn’t shuffling Joe away as punishment for gambling (heheheheh), and B) Joe can still do the job, with a cane or in a booth (2nd quarter of 2009 Rose Bowl excepted). Most I-A wins over the last four seasons proof of that. Oh, I think “Aw shucks!” Bowden’s scum just shy of Barry Switzer proportions who’s getting everything he deserves with the NCAA yanking 14 winds from Florida State’s football record, and will never figure out why Joe and Sue Paterno are such great friends with Bobby and his wife (Nike contract?). If Joe was about the ego, would he so vociferously be defending Bowden keeping the wins? Again, Nike contract?
Yes, it’s true. I love Joe Paterno as much as I currently loathe Pete Rose.
Right now and mercifully, though, me want’um South Park and sleep …
So,Floyd,if the NFL barred convicted felons from playing for or owning teams,would you find that to your liking?
It depends on the felony.
I don’t if “to my liking” is the best way to put it, but it would certainly be a good business model. If they’re going to cultivate that image as a business, then they need to do it. Is football a great way to rehabilitate people? Yes it is. I ‘m a big believer in the redemptive power of athletics and competition.
I expect entertainers to entertain… their personal lives are somewhat irrelevant. I know hero-worship seems to be inherent in mankind, but would I really have been negatively affected if Roger Staubach turned out to be a pedophile? I had my Dad, my Papa, and my great uncles around as male role models — none of them perfect and none of them with Super Bowl rings either — dammit!
Vick’s personal life is meaningless to me as a fan. The NFL has helped create this problem to a large extent by creating myths, cultivating rabid and high-paying fans, and putting itself out there as “NFL cares” with it’s United Way campaigns, etc. It doesn’t allow much room for frailty or evil. Vick’s second greatest sin (after the whole dog thing…) was ruining the aura. He broke the entertainer’s code — akin to (but much worse than) mouthy liberal celebrities.
“I ‘m a big believer in the redemptive power of athletics and competition.”
I can see this applying to a young teen who is in trouble with the law or drugs and who, through good mentor ship, coaching, and team camaraderie, finds such redemption, but it’s really a stretch to believe a professional athlete gone bad could do the same. One can hope, but I wouldn’t lay a bet on it.
Why do we continue to let CRIMINALS play in professional sports? Say all you want, but Professional sports teams represent our nation as a whole. Professionals should be positive role models for their countrymen and an inspiration for people to strive to achieve their dreams. There should NEVER NEVER NEVER be CRIMINALS or CONVICTS allowed to be in any position to represent our nation, it’s people or participate in professional sports.