1. Aren’t most crimes hate crimes? I’m dead set against them in general though I don’t mind racial animus or whatever being an aggravating factor in punishment. I want people convicted for what they do not what they think generally.
2. Do you have a specific issue in mind? I’m not against it generally. I think it gives people a fair shot to avoid home cooking though it can be abused — like all procedural issues.
My biggest problem with Hate Crime Laws is how easily they can be exploited by prosecutors, even if there is no real hate involved. Take the Matthew Shepard case, for example. It turns out that, as recently pointed out on Big Hollywood (http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/pmeister/2009/10/22/pop-culture-exploits-matthew-shepard-tragedy-to-create-thought-crimes/), Shepard wasn’t killed because he was gay, but because his assailants were robbing him for drug money, and would have picked anyone they considered to be an easy mark. In other words, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Had there been Hate Crime laws in place, the prosecutor could have nevertheless claimed it was a Hate Crime and gotten the judge to increase the assailants’ punishments accordingly.
Now, don’t get me wrong; I have no sympathy for the men who killed Shepard. They are murdering scumbags and they should never be allowed to see the light of day again. But if we open the door to allow people to be punished for something with such a fuzzy definition as “hate,” that’s a very dangerous precedent.
My Halloween party was a smash hit. I haven’t been around the last few days cause I was doing some last minute planning. Me and my friend built a haunted house in our friend’s attic and it was awesome.
On Red Eye the other night they were talking about hate crimes. Faith Sallie was all for more hate crime legislation but when Andy Levy read to her the sentencing that the killers of Matthew Shepard received and asked her what more could a hate crime law do she had no answer.
Eventually they will try to use hate crime laws to prosecute people who have committed no crime, just who thought something that wasn’t socially acceptable. We actually had a speaker at the law school a few weeks ago that says he doesn’t believe in free speech. He thought there should be laws to prosecute people who say racially insensitive things. D-Bag.
Is not hate protected speech,Floyd? If I kill a person because he is gay or black,is he anymore dead than if I just walked up to him and just shot him for his wallet?Blackhawk makes a great point
Oh he is so tired. He just walked in was accosted by the dog and then dropped his bags and fell into bed and fell asleep. He then got up about 7am here and we went and did stuff. I think we are hitting the rack early tonight. We have a thing tomorrow. Rufus knows what it is!
Yeah, Floyd, what say you? As an American, one should have the ‘freedom’ to hate. Acting on that hate in the form of discrimination, causing harm to or killing someone, or damaging property IS a crime. There are limits to free speech already enforced, right? As in of libel or causing panic.
My fear is who would define ‘hate’ speech? There are those who call speaking out against President Obama and his policies ‘hate speech.’ What was not hate speech against Bush 43 is now hate speech for our current president. Dissent and debate are now hate speech.
TCW… I detest hate crimes as such. I do not mind so much if, during the sentencing phase, such things are taken into account in punishment. The prime example is the James Byrd case. Mr. Byrd was walking down a road in East Texas when three ex-con Aryan Brotherhood (a prison gang) happen upon him. They chained him to the back of the pick up and dragged him a good mile or so. They didn’t do it for pocket change and they didn’t do it for his car or jewelry. They killed him because they were racists and Byrd was Black. So yeah — it was intentional felony-murder (kidnapping plus murder), but under TX law at the time racial animus was an aggravating factor in punishment. Killing someone for their race is a sign of extra depravity to me and I have noi problem if a jury finds it so. I don’t think it should be presumed without obvious evidence though. These guys were all tatted up, in a prison gang notorious for anti-Black hatred, and made statements indicating a racial motive.
My fear is that any inter-racial crime will become a “hate crime”. The facts are very clear… 92% of Blacks that are murdered — are killed by other Blacks. Ditto all races by the way. Intra-racial crime is the problem. Any Black genocide is perpetrated by inner city Blacks on themselves.
Another issue is motivation. I don’t have an issue with racial prejudice used to prove motivation in a criminal case. In that instance the thought is not being punished, it is simply being used to show that the accused may have had a motive for the crime. Motive can be a key element in a criminal case, but you don’t need a new law to bring that evidence into a case.
You’re right. Inter-racial crime is not as prevalent as the one group that gets “hated” on equally by all – the gays. So regardless of color, they get killed evenly by all groups.
Assuming one can measure that Barry. Gays don’t carry any distinguishing characteristics that mark them as such like skin color. I guess they could check, but that’s not on your average autopsy. As such — it’s made up fact to say that gays are killed at a higher rate than other groups. I highly doubt since most people are killed by those they live near and gays — like all subcultures tend to congregate and segregate.
What is fact-based… the gay community has loads more domestic violence in it than heterosexuals — lesbians and gays. The stats disappear because “spouse” does not appear on the form. “Roommate or housemate” often does and it goes down as an assault.
Oh no you don’t College Widow. Trying to steal our one drum that we beat for eight years as your own. Liberals were labeled with “hate speech” and even more venomously as “unpatriotic speech.” So don’t try to steal our thunder and wear that badge of honor now as if it hadn’t been worn out by us during the previous administration.
Two key differences re. those labels, though, BarryO:
1) It was vitriolic and hate-filled, typically emotional and lacking the fact, reason and logic more often than not in what the left labels as “hate speech” from the right.
2) Not one person was jailed for bad-mouthing the U.S. of A. Not Natalie Maines, not Johnny Depp, not Keith Olbermann, not Bill Maher.
Now please go beat your drum, or something else if you’re so inclined. Just make sure your mom doesn’t walk in a la Estelle Costanza.
OH I love it College Widow is being lectured by brat. Bring it on.
Barry O you are the one who seperates and divides people. I know you are too self absorbed to see that for youself but we do. I don’t care if someone is gay, straight, or a freaking martian, if the some one brutally murders someone for any reason regardless its a hate crime as all murder is a hate crime. You merely want to label speech in order to shut down voices you dopn’t agree with. Come on and at least be honest about it.
Huh? Sorry I was late to pick up on this as you must have been looking forward to picking a fight with me. Or maybe you’re trying to be sarcastic. I can’t tell.
If you’re serious I ask you to give me real proof anyone was ever called out as being ‘unpatriotic’ during the Bush 43 years for being critical of the administration. The only time I ever heard the word unpatriotic was when libs like Hillary would squeal and whine. Here’s the formula used: make a statement and wail about being called unpatriotic when the stated agenda/or criticism fails.
So yeah, to put it in your parlance, yeah, I’m stealing your drum. I’m stealing your thunder. I’ll wear that badge of honor, thank you very much, and I’ll wear it all the way to election day 2012 when, God willing, we’ll dispatch the nation of the scourge that is Obama.
Blackhawk where have you been hiding? Friday I had the powers that be put up a picture of a hot bikini clad zombie (from space no less) just for you. You absolutely have to scroll down to “We Report, You Decide”.
On another note the government is seeking to strip us of a bit more freedom and choice (obviously) in the new healthcare boondoggle. The FSA accounts which allow you to contribute an unlimited amount of money pre-tax which can be used only for health related expenses are to be capped in the new legislation. The cap the Democrats have written into the legislation would cap your contributions at $2,500 because no one could possibly spend more than $2,500 on healthcare could they? To make this even more retarded most companies are transferring their health policies to max deductible policies that have $5,000 deductibles, in plain English this means that for a good percentage of employees the $2,500 maximum FSA contribution would only cover half of their deductible leaving them having to cough up the remaining $2,500 out of pocket. I will now set myself on fire.
Yeah I saw it…thanks Halloween party stuff took most of my time since Thursday. I am so happy I no longer drink. I went to sleep around 3:30am and woke up at 9:00am feeling like a million bucks.
To quote the great Dean Martin, “I feel bad for people who don’t drink, ’cause when they wake up in the morning, that’s the best they’re gonna feel all day.”
Prosecutorial politics as I’ve stated here before is a dangerous thing. The Plaxico Burress/Michael Vick phenomenon is not unrelated to this issue either when it comes to prosecutorial discretion, the philosophy behind our scheme of retribution, etc.
That’s a great SRV album, particularly the cover of “Tell Me,” which I spent many an hour noodling along with. Definitely a better than the studio version.
I don’t think Chris Layton was with the band then, but Tommy Shannon was.
SyFy (the former Sci-Fi channel) has been showing the 80s “V” show all day. I loved this show as a kid, and now while I watch it for the first time in 26 years I’m thinking, what lame ass action, fx, and acting (from some of the co-stars and extras). But I was wondering if this alien, Fascist force was the network’s idea of symbolism for the Reagan administration. I’m also wondering if the new series is going to be an attack on conservatives.
It looks like just the opposite on the new one. The new alien’s spokeswoman has made frequent references to “hope” and “change” also there have been promo pieces about them giving us “free healthcare”. On more subtle notes there is the Christ like way people treat the visitors and the visitors control and manipulation of the media. For now I’m cautiously optimistic.
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Since you teach law,Floyd,I wanted to ask your opinion on a couple of areas…1)Hate Crime laws,and 2)Federal Court diversity jurisdiction
1. Aren’t most crimes hate crimes? I’m dead set against them in general though I don’t mind racial animus or whatever being an aggravating factor in punishment. I want people convicted for what they do not what they think generally.
2. Do you have a specific issue in mind? I’m not against it generally. I think it gives people a fair shot to avoid home cooking though it can be abused — like all procedural issues.
My biggest problem with Hate Crime Laws is how easily they can be exploited by prosecutors, even if there is no real hate involved. Take the Matthew Shepard case, for example. It turns out that, as recently pointed out on Big Hollywood (http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/pmeister/2009/10/22/pop-culture-exploits-matthew-shepard-tragedy-to-create-thought-crimes/), Shepard wasn’t killed because he was gay, but because his assailants were robbing him for drug money, and would have picked anyone they considered to be an easy mark. In other words, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Had there been Hate Crime laws in place, the prosecutor could have nevertheless claimed it was a Hate Crime and gotten the judge to increase the assailants’ punishments accordingly.
Now, don’t get me wrong; I have no sympathy for the men who killed Shepard. They are murdering scumbags and they should never be allowed to see the light of day again. But if we open the door to allow people to be punished for something with such a fuzzy definition as “hate,” that’s a very dangerous precedent.
My Halloween party was a smash hit. I haven’t been around the last few days cause I was doing some last minute planning. Me and my friend built a haunted house in our friend’s attic and it was awesome.
On Red Eye the other night they were talking about hate crimes. Faith Sallie was all for more hate crime legislation but when Andy Levy read to her the sentencing that the killers of Matthew Shepard received and asked her what more could a hate crime law do she had no answer.
Eventually they will try to use hate crime laws to prosecute people who have committed no crime, just who thought something that wasn’t socially acceptable. We actually had a speaker at the law school a few weeks ago that says he doesn’t believe in free speech. He thought there should be laws to prosecute people who say racially insensitive things. D-Bag.
Is not hate protected speech,Floyd? If I kill a person because he is gay or black,is he anymore dead than if I just walked up to him and just shot him for his wallet?Blackhawk makes a great point
Hubby got home after a monumental and epic journey of 26 hours. He made the connection with minutes to spare and walked through the door at 1am.
Glad he’s home. I suspect we won’t be seeing much of you for a while, though.
heh
Oh he is so tired. He just walked in was accosted by the dog and then dropped his bags and fell into bed and fell asleep. He then got up about 7am here and we went and did stuff. I think we are hitting the rack early tonight. We have a thing tomorrow. Rufus knows what it is!
Big day today for Mr. and Mrs. Stephanie!
Yes it was. Very awesome to.
Yeah, Floyd, what say you? As an American, one should have the ‘freedom’ to hate. Acting on that hate in the form of discrimination, causing harm to or killing someone, or damaging property IS a crime. There are limits to free speech already enforced, right? As in of libel or causing panic.
My fear is who would define ‘hate’ speech? There are those who call speaking out against President Obama and his policies ‘hate speech.’ What was not hate speech against Bush 43 is now hate speech for our current president. Dissent and debate are now hate speech.
TCW… I detest hate crimes as such. I do not mind so much if, during the sentencing phase, such things are taken into account in punishment. The prime example is the James Byrd case. Mr. Byrd was walking down a road in East Texas when three ex-con Aryan Brotherhood (a prison gang) happen upon him. They chained him to the back of the pick up and dragged him a good mile or so. They didn’t do it for pocket change and they didn’t do it for his car or jewelry. They killed him because they were racists and Byrd was Black. So yeah — it was intentional felony-murder (kidnapping plus murder), but under TX law at the time racial animus was an aggravating factor in punishment. Killing someone for their race is a sign of extra depravity to me and I have noi problem if a jury finds it so. I don’t think it should be presumed without obvious evidence though. These guys were all tatted up, in a prison gang notorious for anti-Black hatred, and made statements indicating a racial motive.
My fear is that any inter-racial crime will become a “hate crime”. The facts are very clear… 92% of Blacks that are murdered — are killed by other Blacks. Ditto all races by the way. Intra-racial crime is the problem. Any Black genocide is perpetrated by inner city Blacks on themselves.
Another issue is motivation. I don’t have an issue with racial prejudice used to prove motivation in a criminal case. In that instance the thought is not being punished, it is simply being used to show that the accused may have had a motive for the crime. Motive can be a key element in a criminal case, but you don’t need a new law to bring that evidence into a case.
Thanks, Floyd. Very good points and makes a great deal of sense. Considering the motivation, as in the Byrd case, in the sentencing phase seems fair.
In the James C. Byrd case, two of the murderers recieved the Death Penalty.
You’re right. Inter-racial crime is not as prevalent as the one group that gets “hated” on equally by all – the gays. So regardless of color, they get killed evenly by all groups.
Oh goodness gracious, BarryO, let’s have some statistics, please. Outside of the Middle East where are gays getting killed?
Assuming one can measure that Barry. Gays don’t carry any distinguishing characteristics that mark them as such like skin color. I guess they could check, but that’s not on your average autopsy. As such — it’s made up fact to say that gays are killed at a higher rate than other groups. I highly doubt since most people are killed by those they live near and gays — like all subcultures tend to congregate and segregate.
What is fact-based… the gay community has loads more domestic violence in it than heterosexuals — lesbians and gays. The stats disappear because “spouse” does not appear on the form. “Roommate or housemate” often does and it goes down as an assault.
That’s the difference. You see a GAY person being killed, I see a PERSON being killed
Yeah, the streets are filled. Just had to step over a few bodies on my way to vote.
Oh no you don’t College Widow. Trying to steal our one drum that we beat for eight years as your own. Liberals were labeled with “hate speech” and even more venomously as “unpatriotic speech.” So don’t try to steal our thunder and wear that badge of honor now as if it hadn’t been worn out by us during the previous administration.
Two key differences re. those labels, though, BarryO:
1) It was vitriolic and hate-filled, typically emotional and lacking the fact, reason and logic more often than not in what the left labels as “hate speech” from the right.
2) Not one person was jailed for bad-mouthing the U.S. of A. Not Natalie Maines, not Johnny Depp, not Keith Olbermann, not Bill Maher.
Now please go beat your drum, or something else if you’re so inclined. Just make sure your mom doesn’t walk in a la Estelle Costanza.
Take Johnny off the list. I don’t want to know that he bad mouthed the US. I don’t want to know *anything* about him, I just want to watch.
Sorry, T. He said what he said and I won’t be the one to take it back for him.
OH I love it College Widow is being lectured by brat. Bring it on.
Barry O you are the one who seperates and divides people. I know you are too self absorbed to see that for youself but we do. I don’t care if someone is gay, straight, or a freaking martian, if the some one brutally murders someone for any reason regardless its a hate crime as all murder is a hate crime. You merely want to label speech in order to shut down voices you dopn’t agree with. Come on and at least be honest about it.
Huh? Sorry I was late to pick up on this as you must have been looking forward to picking a fight with me. Or maybe you’re trying to be sarcastic. I can’t tell.
If you’re serious I ask you to give me real proof anyone was ever called out as being ‘unpatriotic’ during the Bush 43 years for being critical of the administration. The only time I ever heard the word unpatriotic was when libs like Hillary would squeal and whine. Here’s the formula used: make a statement and wail about being called unpatriotic when the stated agenda/or criticism fails.
So yeah, to put it in your parlance, yeah, I’m stealing your drum. I’m stealing your thunder. I’ll wear that badge of honor, thank you very much, and I’ll wear it all the way to election day 2012 when, God willing, we’ll dispatch the nation of the scourge that is Obama.
Blackhawk where have you been hiding? Friday I had the powers that be put up a picture of a hot bikini clad zombie (from space no less) just for you. You absolutely have to scroll down to “We Report, You Decide”.
On another note the government is seeking to strip us of a bit more freedom and choice (obviously) in the new healthcare boondoggle. The FSA accounts which allow you to contribute an unlimited amount of money pre-tax which can be used only for health related expenses are to be capped in the new legislation. The cap the Democrats have written into the legislation would cap your contributions at $2,500 because no one could possibly spend more than $2,500 on healthcare could they? To make this even more retarded most companies are transferring their health policies to max deductible policies that have $5,000 deductibles, in plain English this means that for a good percentage of employees the $2,500 maximum FSA contribution would only cover half of their deductible leaving them having to cough up the remaining $2,500 out of pocket. I will now set myself on fire.
Yeah I saw it…thanks
Halloween party stuff took most of my time since Thursday. I am so happy I no longer drink. I went to sleep around 3:30am and woke up at 9:00am feeling like a million bucks.
To quote the great Dean Martin, “I feel bad for people who don’t drink, ’cause when they wake up in the morning, that’s the best they’re gonna feel all day.”
Yeah,Floyd,let’s see how many “people of color” are convicted of hate crimes…ha,ha
That about sums it up, Scott.
Prosecutorial politics as I’ve stated here before is a dangerous thing. The Plaxico Burress/Michael Vick phenomenon is not unrelated to this issue either when it comes to prosecutorial discretion, the philosophy behind our scheme of retribution, etc.
What was your question on fed jurisdiction?
That’s a great SRV album, particularly the cover of “Tell Me,” which I spent many an hour noodling along with. Definitely a better than the studio version.
I don’t think Chris Layton was with the band then, but Tommy Shannon was.
SyFy (the former Sci-Fi channel) has been showing the 80s “V” show all day. I loved this show as a kid, and now while I watch it for the first time in 26 years I’m thinking, what lame ass action, fx, and acting (from some of the co-stars and extras). But I was wondering if this alien, Fascist force was the network’s idea of symbolism for the Reagan administration. I’m also wondering if the new series is going to be an attack on conservatives.
The new series looks to be slamming “hope” quite a bit, but who knows?
As for the series from ’84, it was nothing like the two awesome mini-series that spawned it. Lame all around.
Matt,
It looks like just the opposite on the new one. The new alien’s spokeswoman has made frequent references to “hope” and “change” also there have been promo pieces about them giving us “free healthcare”. On more subtle notes there is the Christ like way people treat the visitors and the visitors control and manipulation of the media. For now I’m cautiously optimistic.