The above image looks familiar does it not? You’ve seen it and saluted it often dear Threedonians. Or have you? This is a 1951 48-star U.S. flag. None of us — except Fritz — has probably ever laid eyes on a 48-star flag that was not a mistake or a relic. I apologize if I’ve missed any old-farts out there in Threedonia.
Dovetailing with Rich’s post below… here is a story from The Wall Street Journal last week on the issue of state finances. Regardless of John FN’s fears of Glenn Beck I find him both manic and cogent. Anyway he mentioned this last night and I found it in the WSJ. Let this one sink in for a moment (emphasis mine):
As of July 2009, California’s budget shortfall was 49.3% of its general funds. States have considered drastic options to fill such gaps.
“I looked as hard as I could at how states could declare bankruptcy,” said Michael Genest, director of the California Department of Finance who is stepping down at the end of the year. “I literally looked at the federal constitution to see if there was a way for states to return to territory status.”
Here’s the relevant Constitutional section: Article IV Sections 3 and 4:
Section 3. New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress.
The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.
Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.
I’m going to do a lot more reading in this area. The move to statehood was assumed for federal territories in the 19th century through the early 20th. I don’t think the federal government pre-1900 was much interested in governing huge chunks of territory until the turn of the last century when they kept or co-opted large portions of Western states — usually to seize natural resources never cities, counties, etc. I’m not so sure if the Federal Territory of California sounds all that bad to some of these federal officials nowadays — or to some of their state-level sycophants who would just move to the federal teat from the state one. More in the future…
Is it likely? I doubt it. Is it possible? Who knows?
For the record, I remember 48 stars. Quite well.
But I’m not sure how they’re counting states these days. Our president thought there were 57, after all, and as he says, accountancy “is not an exact science.”
Thanks for giving me something brand new to worry about!
Possible? Certainly. Possible within the edicts of the Constitution and other applicable Federal and local statutes? Who knows, but it seems more than likely. If a state refused self-governance, simply disbanded its government at the state level jurisdiction for what’s not covered federally would fall to the next largest, municipal government, wouldn’t it?
It seems to me that if the state apparatus in Sacramento disbanded the counties would be able to grab whatever power they choose (within the limits of the U.S. Constitution). If L.A. county wants to set a maximum speed limit of 100mph on the roads in its county, and there is no longer a state bureau of motor vehicles or transportation then why not?
I don’t see how the U.S. Constitution of any apparatus of the U.S. government can force a state to govern itself.
Floyd, I think the place to focus your research would be on the legislation that formed the state in 1850. If there isn’t anything in there mandating that the state govern itself “in perpetuity” I think you’re good to go.
What an interesting question. Kinda like secession-lite, I suppose. Plus, it would remove federal representation from Congress, which means that all those human plagues like Pelosi, Waxman, Feinstein, etc. ad nauseum, would be gone, gone, baby.
I know, it’ll never happen. But a boy can dream, yes?
The US didn’t go past 48 states until 1959, so I think there are more of us than you think, Floyd. And if the federal government kept their part of the bargain in Section 4 “The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government…” we’d be a whole lot better off.
First of all, the 50 star flag and I are exactly the same age. Hawaii was admitted to the Union on August 21, 1959. Thus, on that day, the 49 star flag applied until Hawaii was admitted and the 50 star flag thereafter. Ergo, August 22, 1959 was the first full day that the 50 star flag was in effect – and it was the day that I got my first slap on the rump as well. So I got THAT going for me.
Anyways, that’s a fascinating theorem Floyd. Love to see how it plays out. Who would be responsible for the debts of a state that dissolved itself? If memory serves, the US government did not assume the debts of the former Confederate States once the War of Northern Aggression was over, right? Would this be a similar situation?
You share the anniversary of your natal day with the lovely Mrs. Firefly. Of course she was born many, many years later.
I’ve got to believe the citizens of the jurisdiction (whether it’s officially a state, or not) would remain responsible for any debts incurred by the legislators while representing the aforementioned citizens. Otherwise it would be like me hiring an agent and giving her power of attorney. If she skips town I’m still responsible for the agreements she entered into on my behalf.
Actually, the flag changes only on the 4th of July. So the was a whole year of 49 stars.
All a polite way of saying, “Rich is wrong.” Immensely, immeasurably, inexorably wrong.
Maybe this opens up the possibility of that mythical state of Jefferson. Where the 2 most rational parts of California and Oregon (Northern and Southern, respectively) join together.
Either Medford or Redding would be the capital. We would exclude the city of Ashland and Humbolt County – maybe build walls around both.
Any state that goes into receivership should lose it’s federal representation, have it’s state gov’t disbanded and be considered a territory. There should be consequences for states that demonstrate they are not capable of self government.At that point, Congress should be able to redraw the territorial boundaries in whatever form they choose, like they did back in the 1800s. Split California into three, allow the northern/non-costal part back in while keeping the cites out. Readmit upstate Nwe York while freeing it from the stupidity of the city.
…or just make borders that look like wacky shapes. Take a big section of central California and make a new territory called, “Popsicleistan” and shape it like a popsicle. Or, shape it like David Hasselhof and name it, “Bay Watcholia.”
Or Freedonia.
OR FREEDONIA!!!!!!
And the Comment of the Year Award for 2009 goes to…
LARS WALKER!!!
(insert celebrating Alfalfa here)
48 Stars??? Ha! Old people are funny…
I looked at the 1850 statute… very slim pickings. I know there’s an “equal state” doctrine where all states are equal to other states. There have been cases where the Fed was slapped down by SCOTUS for making the statehood of OK contingent on them placing their capitol in Guthrie and where Alabama retained sovereignty over inundated coastal lands that the Feds claimed as US territory and AL said was theirs.
The Federal government would move very quickly is CA or MI somehow imploded. Counties and cities would have to get their shit together quickly. Counties and cities operate with state grants of power though so if the sovereign implodes it would be Katy-bar-the-door
I would surmise (and this is just guessing with no research into it yet) that any formal request for federal takeover would have to pass voters in CA under our Constitution. I actually think splitting CA into 2 different states is a great idea, though Dems would never let that happen because it would create a new red state. I think the state has become unmanageable and a reboot is in order. Seeing as how the special interests in our current makeup would hamstring any Constitutional convention — we would have what would basically be the COMINTERN Redux.
Water would start a war — not that it won’t anyway.
For years I’ve played a little game of redrawing the U.S. map when bored. There is a ton of silliness and inefficiency in our current boundaries. It all made sense at some point in history, but in the modern world many of them are a burden. I don’t think any of the states will ever make the changes I ponder, but I’m sure a lot of them would be better for it. To use an obvious example: Why are Vermont and New Hampshire separate states with separate seats of government? It’s wasteful. You can’t tell me both states couldn’t combine and share a government with no loss of services or representation.
Upstate New York needs to break away from the New York metro area. Throw in some of New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Connecticut. Maybe join Vermont and New Hampshire with upstate New York. Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island become one state. Alabama gets the Florida panhandle. Northern Texas merges with Oklahoma. North and South Dakota combine into one, Super Dakota. Merge Montana and Wyoming. Combine coastal Washington with coastal Oregon to make a new state. Combine the western 2/3 of both states to form a different, new state. Illinois south of Kankakee becomes part of Indiana. Northern Missouri merges with Southern Iowa. Michigan gives the UP back to Wisconsin…
Don’t forget California and Northern California, which would relate better to Oregon anyway. Can I get any takers for Cleveland?
Poland?
Yeah,Floyd,Fritz isn’t the only old geezer here…I’m 8/17/58
notice how they never talk about cutting social welfare spending, cutting salaries of gubmint workers, loosening restrictions on business development, etc. oh no, let’s just revert back to territory status.
Heaven forbid.
It’s difficult… the courts have struck down every attempt. The Constitution has been amended all out of whack — and the special interests are all out of whack. This is the comeuppance for early 20th century Progressives and their identity politics. They’re naive belief that a moral middle class beholden to their values and not to either party has become a multi-headed Hydra of special interests. Party affiliations are still fairly tenuous with Repubs and Dems crossing lines in voting, the Leg., etc. This place is a mess.
We need a reboot and a new Constitution, but I am quite fearful of what that would bring given the lunacy that resides on our Coast.
To me the key is that any state with more than a dozen or 15 representatives is too big. I haven’t looked it up lately, but that means at least New York, Penn., Florida, Texas, Ill. and Calif. (Michigan used to qualify, but they’ve found their own way…) In most of those cases, where to make the split is pretty obvious. (For example, Florida, where “The farther north you go, the more Southern you get.” would be somewhere south of Orlando/Tampa and north of Ft. Lauderdale.)
The small states could even gang up and force the issue with a constitutional amendment that limited a state to 15 or 20 electoral votes.
Besides, every new state would get two new senators. Split California three ways and you’d still have 40-some representatives, but 6 senators. That’s the only reason we have two Dakotas– it was a geographically big area and the Robber Barons running the railroads wanted more senate seats they could control.
While some of the state shapes are seem peculiar, actually they can work out fairly well. Especially considering in some cases they had no idea of where the geography really was. (The specification for Montana left a small chunk of Dakota territory wedged in between Idaho, Wyo. and Montana for about a decade until better surveys showed the problem.) The notch in Utah, for instance, geographically really is more Wyoming that Deseret. Idaho and Wyoming even got permission from Congress to discuss adjusting their border, but ultimately decided it wasn’t worth it. (For years Alta Wyo. had an Idaho area code, for instance.) Originally Congress wanted to put the Calif-Nev border at the crest of the Sierra, but Calif. as a state, didn’t agree, so instead they moved Nevada’s border eastward a degree. Splitting Montana along the Divide, and attaching northern Idaho to the western half would make sense, though.
Never NEVER EVER talk about dividing Texas again, or I will sic the Republic of Texas on you. Those guys will torture you.
C’mon, that stuff up by Oklahoma… Be honest, you didn’t even know that was in Texas until I mentioned it yesterday.
It may be ugly and useless, but it’s ours. You want it, Link come and take it
does this mean that West Virginia is unconstitutional?
Technically, yes. Not that they were in any position to complain about the impropriety of secession when it happened.
It all depends on whether or not you accept that Virginia was a state at that time, or if by secession, Virginia had given up the power to oppose having a new state erected within their old borders.
Ahhh. Cleveland. Is there anyway to make a burning river a state flag? 10 cent beer the state beverage? Let’s go!
WVa. — arguably but since they didn’t want to secede we just took it.
Cleveland = The Mistake by the Lake
Toledo = Armpit of America
Youngstown = Mobtown
Akron = Crackron
Once school is over if I stay in Ohio it will be in the narrow corridor between Cincinnati and Columbus, with Dayton falling in between.
Since this is not “Ace of Spades”, i’ve bowdlerized it a bit, but feel free to substitute your favorite crude words:
I’ve heard it said that Pocatello Idaho may not be the [rectal orifice] of the west, but it is definitely within [flatulence] distance. (The same also said of Butte, Montana.)
Make it Cincy or Columbus. The last job left Dayton earlier this summer. Not that it isn’t a nice town (I happen to really like it), but Dayton isn’t exactly a forward-thinking burg on the business end.
Pocatello can’t possibly come close to the rectal orifice of the West, when Oakland, Stockton, Berkeley are clearly the front runners.
And we cannot forget San Bernardino…a city of over 200K where nearly 60% live on gov’t assistance….. awesomely awesome.
Good point, Floyd. We cannot forget Winona, Kingsman, Barstow, San Bernardino.
Sure, but where would you get your kick, good sir?
I was raised i the Inland Empire. Got the hell outa town as it slid from blue collar burg to disaster zone. About four years ago, while driving through I stopped in and checked out the old haunts. Reminded me of those old films of post war Europe. The high school had razor wire atop the fences.
I love the Inland Empire, and, don’t tell anyone, but I have it on good authority the Turbo family lives in the vicinity…
[...] rest is here: threedonia.com » Shrinkage By admin | category: bankruptcy new state york | tags: companies, financial, florida, [...]