Note to visiting jihadists:
Graphic selected by R.T. Firefly, over the STRONG objections of trzupr
You’re minding your own business, quietly trying to preserve western civilization and culture in the 21st Century, then this happens:
“Islamic nations are mounting a campaign for an international treaty to protect religious symbols and beliefs from mockery.”
Hmm. Whose religious symbols need protection from the evils of mockery? Any guesses? Algerian Ambassador Idriss Jazairy, a member of the UN’s Ad Hoc Committee on Complementary Standards, has some ideas:
“If we keep hitting this glass wall and say there’s nothing you can do about Islamophobia — you can do something about anti-Semitism but Islamophobia is out of bounds — you give an ideal platform for recruitment of suicide bombers,” he said.
Sounds vaguely like – er – a “threat”, don’t you think? As in: “If you accursed infidels do not make it illegal to make fun of our religion, we will blow up even more of you!”
And Mr. Jazairy has a point (in addition to the one hidden by his turban) for we never – ever – hear about anti-Semitism any more. It’s not like anyone, least of all the Muslim nations that are famous for being most respectful of other traditions and cultures, ever denounces the Jews, makes fun of the Jews or calls for the destruction of Israel.
There are, as cleverer people than I have noted, two types of jihadists. Type A is the kaboom-jihadist, whose methods of waging war against the infidel are self-explanatory. Type B is the stealth-jihadist, who (supposedly) is trying to mitigate the effect of kaboom-jihadists by continually asking the west for “reasonable” concessions. You know, like restricting free speech. Little things like that.
At least Hillary has the balls to say something:
“Some claim that the best way to protect the freedom of religion is to implement so-called anti-defamation policies that would restrict freedom of expression and the freedom of religion,” Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said. “I strongly disagree.”
Will her boss condemn this assinine initiative as well? Not without a testicular transplant he won’t.
I will behead you and rape your goats for mocking Allah infidel.
Dang it. My last post was supposed to be anonymous but my email address put up my monkey picture. Curses!!
A humorous side note the “Ads by Google” sidebar ad for this story was for Muslima.com which is apparently a Muslim dating site. I demand someone go investigate this immediately if nothing else to see the pictures.
And now you have associated Muslims with monkeys. You are so fatwa-ed Veruckt.
“Islamic nations are mounting a campaign for an international treaty to protect religious symbols and beliefs from mockery.”
Oh, grow a pair already, will you?
The day liberals stop mocking Christians, that’s the day I’ll stop mocking Islam. Until then, it’s game on.
This is hilarious. OK fine…fine. When you neanderthals stop treating your women less than dogs, stop treating your kids worse, stop beheading people who don’t want to join your club because A: The ban on wine is stupid, and B: Your body odor is less than fantastic C: Goats are not the kinds of animals we wanna eat. D: Give pigs a break, dogs to for that matter then we will consider maybe stopping making fun of your backwards, caveman, butchering religion. Islam is slavery, we got it…you make perfect slaves, just stop trying to make the rest of us join your team.
I mean really I highly doubt a muslim country could have ever figured out penicillian. A religion that cannot evolve past ALllaaaaaa BOOM is pretty retro…
Welcome Infidel blonde chick! great name!
It is isn’t it…..
Thought so.
what, have you started your holiday drinking early?? That was so obviously Stephanie.
Love that argument: “stop making fun of my religion, and do what my buddy Ali demands, and I believe he might stop trying to kill you.”
Or in other words, “Don’t accuse me of being violent, or I’ll kill you.”
Nice one Lars.
Ok, ok, ok, we all agree there’s a huge problem, and we all agree something needs to be done, but simply bitching and moaning about it isn’t doing anything.
So here’s my question: how would you fix the situation? I have my own theories, but how would you go about moderating and modernizing islam? Bearing in mind that you probably can’t have a short-term solution to the problem, and bearing in mind that they’ll react just as badly as we would if someone came in and insisted that we modernize our own faiths.
I’m not saying it isn’t possible, and certainly it’s worth doing, but it’s difficult. I’ve got my own opinions on how to go about it, but I want ideas, people! This is how things are changed: not by sitting about kvetching, but by coming up with a plan, and spreading it around until people actually adopt it.
The only strategy for changing Islam – which Westerners could undertake, is through complete and utter military victory. The strategy stopped Nazism and Japanese militarism.
Other than the military option – the only way I see any change happening is a religious civil war – within Islam.
I’ve been thinking about this, and frankly I think “bitching and moaning” *is* part of the solution.
The real problem we have today is not the tremendous, inexorable power of Islam. It’s the obsequious, “Please sir, may I have another?” attitude of leaders and opinion-makers in the West. If we grew some spine and stood up for our culture and traditions, much of the assault would be rolled back, and what was left would at least be fought on clearer lines of battle.
Aside from political activism, one of the most important things we can do is just to say, “The emperor has no clothes!” and to keep saying it until Our Betters realize they can’t fool us anymore.
I have no problem watching LIFE OF BRIAN or South Park’s “Red Sleigh Down”*.
I also have no problem with Islam being mocked.
*Mr. Hankey is a bit disgusting, however.
Speaking of Life of Brian, somewhere in an Al-Qaeda training camp:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
How would I fix the problem? There’d be LOTS of deportations. I know very unpc but right now I could care less. Our survival trumps the terrorists. If you cannot assimilate you leave. If you try to use “Sharia” law you will be jailed and then deported back to the cat box you came from. Easy peasy.
Step one: boycott Best Buy. Very difficult for me to say this, but considering the BS, not so hard after all.
Wow. If that can’t get us with planes, they’ll do it with ACLU and liberal jelly.
Yep thats me to. Ain’t gonna buy no more Best Buy if they are apologists. You won’t change people who do not, cannot and have no comprehension of change. Ask an expert how Muslims view women and not just any woman but White women.
I agree with Lars and I agree with Steph. Step one is protecting the culture and institutions that we have – stopping the infection, in other words, and excising the tumors where they exist. And, for that to happen, the nation must acknowledge the disease in the first place. We need to bitch and moan – loudly and often – about the jihadists and the poison they want to spread. (Truly moderate Muslims will be grateful as well).
As far as how Islam heals itself? You can consider how Christianity moved beyond pseudo-religous superstitions, theocracies and selective use of The Word for selfish ends. Christianity grew out of its (somewhat) oppressive medieval phase when three big things happened: 1) the mass of people became more educated, and there was a commensurate explosion in ideas, 2) the economies of Europe began to grow, creating a middle class and spreading both power and wealth much further, and 3) these conditions allowed Luther (et al) to successfully challenge existing Christian (ie Catholic) institutions, which were then forced to reform themselves.
Imams cling to the absolute veracity of the Quran (and the ability to explain what it means) in the same way as medieval Popes used the Bible to advance their own agendas. The Imams understand (just as the Popes once understood) that classic liberal education of Muslims would threaten their power. They understand that a robust middle class would threaten their power. They will tolerate none of it and, without those conditions, I don’t see how one can reform radical, jihadist Islam.
There may be hope in Iraq, where an educated middle class exists, if we keep the faith there. Maybe, if Iran is able to kick out the theocratic bullies, they have a chance too. But the rest of the Muslim world in the Middle East? I don’t see anybody changing anytime soon.
As we used to say when I was traveling to that part of the world: “Welcome to Saudi Arabia. Please set your clocks back 500 years.”
Good analysis, Rich.
I’m reading SuperFreakanomics right now, and there’s a discussion in there about misogyny in rural India. While the country became modernized in urban areas, women living in the country were basically treated the way they are in the Middle East- few civil rights, forced marriages, a high degree of wife-beating, etc. The Indian government tried a number of “awareness” programs to try to reverse this problem, but none of them worked. Things finally started to improve when cable TV was widely introduced into these more rural areas. After regularly seeing images of women acting independenly and being treated respectfully on TV, both the men and women started to change their attitudes, and conditions for women have improved considerably.
This is an example of what needs to happen in the Middle East. The people there need to be allowed to be exposed to different ideas, religions, philosophies, media, and most of all, they need to be allowed to interact with people from other cultures. Once that happens, a modern version of the Enlightenment in that region is inevitable.
@ Jimmy C: “wife-beating” — way to let your Western bias show JC. Racist.
Kind of treating the symptoms, rather than the disease, don’t you think? I mean, you can chop at the weeds all day long, but if you don’t do something about the roots, they’re always going to come back, frequently worse than before.
Treat the disease by removing back to where it came from. Just listened to Curtis Sliwa doing Hannitys show today. He had a lot to say on this bs. There are no moderate muslims. Lets be honest. NONE!
There are very few moderate devout Muslims to be sure. To take the Qu’ran literally is to be a jihadist or jihadist sympathizer.
There will be no Muslim Reformation — it is impossible given the nature and institutional structures of the Muslim faith.
@ Trzupr: I agree. Change has to come from reform within the group itself.
Interestingly, through some schools of thought, it was the discovery of the New World that ultimately led to the reformation, which led to the “Humanization” of Western Christianity, both in the Protestant and Catholic versions. Some of this was direct – an economic exchange that exacerbated the differences between rich and poor, between officials and hoi paloi – and some of it was less direct: once people had a place to go, and could do things without the constant fear of offending an overly letigious clergy, the subjective value of human life increased. (Unless you were an indian, in which case just the opposite happened.)
Another interesting aspect was the gradual feedback of “New World” ideas in to “Old World” religion, which gradually improved things, and made Christianity less medieval. It would seem to me that the best bet for everyone would be finding a way to jump start an Islamic version of the Reformation.
I would posit that we can jumpstart this. There are small Muslim groups in the US that have attempted to dispence with Tradition in favor of a Koran-only religion. There are those here and elsewhere that have argued that cultural strictures imposed by the Hadith and not mentioned in the Koran itself are counterproductive, both to their society and also to the spread of their religion. Really, then, the best thing we can do is encourage these groups, support them, help them further their views. Gradually it’ll perculate through the Islamic world, and even if it doesn’t become the dominant form, the OTHER forms will be forced to adjust their views and practices to accomodate it.
Sure uh huh….is wishes were horse beggars would ride. 40 years have said way different but hey have hope…that’ll stop the next Jihadi…and that will help the so called “Moderates” to come forward. It won’t change. It hasn’t in 1500 years. So please lets be realistic. They are a problem.
Stephanie, as you may or may not have noted, I was expressly talking about Muslims in the United States, who are *generally* more moderate and progressive than Muslims in the old world, and are more open to change. This is something that more Mainline muslim fundamentalists have complained about a lot in the last 40 or 50 years. My point was that we support these people here in the US, and then export them – missionary style – to other countries to influence the development there in a more moderate direction.
This was the same exact idea the pilgrims had when they came here: The church is corrupt, we’ll build a better society, be an example to others, and they’ll emulate us and it’ll improve everything. It didn’t work out the way they wanted, but it did work after a fashion. So this would be a retread of an idea that we already know, and nobody has to die.
Again: I’m not talking about Moderates over there, I could give less of a crap about them. I’m talking about Americans who just happen to be Muslim.
Cool…where are they when one ofn their brothers goes off reservation and blows away 13 fellow Americans. Find me an example besides Mohammed Ali of an American Muslim who jhas spoken out. I find your thoughts naive. There is no example of any so called moderate muslims being outspoken and don’t tell me its because they are fearful. They’d have the full support and protection of the US Gov. if they spoke out…so why don’t they. Its time to stop trying to find a thread to unravel this mess. Its time to can it all in one garbage pale and toss it out. This shit R3 has been going on for 40 years and I hear all about your moderates. Guess what THERE ARN’T ANY! You want proof ask an Arab Christian…
To be fair, there are moderate Muslims. Maybe not a lot – I don’t really know – but no less an authority than Robert Spencer (jihadwatch.org) acknowledges their existence. This particular group is a good one, at least in my view:
http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/
Links to others there as well. I think the litmus test is whether a Muslim group is willing to criticize the radicals or not. If they do, I’m cool with them. If not, I’m not buying that they are “moderate” at all.
@ Trzupr: Thank you. The Muslim population of the US is debateable, but obviously pretty small. Most would put it between 3 and six million at best, this one puts it at less than that http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_islam_usa.html and a lot of these are Muslims who maybe were born in to it, but don’t practice, or the descendents of people who joined groups like the “Nation of Islam” who’s islamic membership is debatable even to other muslims. So obviously within such a small group, the progressive, modernizing, moderate ones are going to be a relatively small minority. They do exist, however. If they don’t have much of a voice, it’s not for fear, it’s because they’re a minority within a minority.
A similar situation happened in Judaism in the late 2nd century, when the Romans tired of nearly-constant war with the Jews and finally said “Look, you will find a way to make your religion less contentious, or we will kill all of you.” The Romans sponsered a school and a few Pharasaic rabbies who were pro-Roman, and from that point out, if you wanted to be clergy, you had to go through this school, no dissent allowed. Anyone who didn’t was shunned, and anyone who was vocal about questioning the authority of the school was killed. A typically brutal roman solution, of course, but quite pragmatic: Within a generation, the Jewish strife mostly melted away, and modern Judaism is descended in very large part from that one decision. I’m not saying we can or should use force to transform a religion, but, you know, greed is a very strong motivator. Perhaps rather than forcing it, we could encourage it through economic means.
@ Stephanie: obviously you and I got off to a bad start, and I do think that we should chat and try to find some middleground where you and I can agree and get along like grownups. It shouldn’t be too hard to do, we’re both members of the same country, we speak the same language (English!), we’re members of the same political party, we worship the same God, and we both presumably exhibit physical bilateral symetry. Clearly, with all that overlap, we must have *something* in common. Email me here: three@republibot.com
@Stephanie: For God’s sake, please take up R3 on his repeated offers for you two to bury the hatchet. The venom you spew his direction’s more annoying than when someone mentions Vince Flynn or Mitch Rapp has a hair out of place.
Happy Thanksgiving Eric.
To you as well.
Steph,
I’m with Eric.
MAKE PEACE ALREADY!
Make Love, not War!
Mind your own business. If I don’t want to email someone its my business.
I’m late to the convo, but I’d like to put in here that I’m related to moderate Muslims on my father’s side of the family (he converted to Christianity when he married my mother).
My father’s mother was the only “religious” practitioner, as it were. My grandmother prayed five times a day, and was in all ways a good, kind, gentle, loving, generous soul. I’m glad she’s not around today to see what is being practiced in the name of the God she worshipped and the religion that gave her such support and comfort.
Another close friend is an Iraqi Muslim, and she practiced her faith quietly, as she told me the Prophet had intended. For example: Ramadan. I’ve lived in places where Islam is the dominant faith, and the week it’s celebrated, people stuff themselves all night after breaking fast.
Ikhlass never did that. She told me that it wasn’t what the Prophet meant for his followers to do — the point of the festival is to think of the poor, to go hungry as they do, then to break your fast humbly, and prayerfully — in remembrance of them and in gratitude that you have food to break your fast with.
@ Eric and Kit: Thanks, guys.
@ Wankette: I, too, have met a lot of very kind, very loving Muslims and Ex-Muslims. Interestingly, most of the stuff the Ex-Muslims complained about is the same kind of things that people tend to ditch Christianity for: an insistance on the letter of the law over the spirit, a lack of perspective, insistence on big showey professions of faith over things like mercy and justice, and so on. An awful lot of ‘em were people who came to the US specifically to get away from the militancy in their homelands.
It’s a very thin and difficult hair to split, but I do think it’s important that we try to separate the Religion from the Culture. I don’t know that your average Midwestern Lutheran Culture or Southern Baptist Culture has all that much to do with Jesus’ message, but a surprising number of people in both regions seem to *THINK* it does.