From the Hollywood Reporter and The Times Online, per Drudge. So far I’ve heard it’s an “environmental allegory” a modern look at American imperialism and the War on Terror, a glimpse into the intricacies of post war American foreign policy, or a really expensive remake of the Smurfs. I’m hedging on the later. Is it bad when South Park has you pegged before your film is even screened?
The Wall Street Journal says ticket sales are highly mixed.
UPDATE: John Nolte goes all “Good German” on Avatar.
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Well, at a half-a-billion budget, the movie will need to clear a cool billion in order to break even. This is my problem with Cameron – it’s not that he isn’t talented, it isn’t that he doesn’t do interesting stuff, it isn’t that he doesn’t have good instincts, it’s just that he shows willful disregard for the budgeting process. Remember when Titanic came out, and everyone talked about how it’d have to be the biggest movie of all time just to turn a profit? Well, luckily for him it was, but how many times can you count on squeaking one out like that? How many “Biggest movies of all time” does a guy have in him realistically?
So: “Mixed ticket sales” are not an encouraging sign.
That’s all irrespective of the movie’s merits or lack thereof. I hope to get out to the theater to watch it this weekend and review it for the ‘Bot.
Hey, remember when we all thought CGI was suppose to make eye-popping films cheaper and easier? Yikes! You could have shredded the money and used the scraps to build sets out of papier mache and it probably would have been cheaper than this…
For the record, “Titanic” was pretty lousy. Great sets and cinematography. Ridiculous story. Why take a true, historical event with enough fascinating, true, real-life stories to fill 25 movies and ignore them all to make up a stupid plot-line about a necklace?
AMEN. That movie was awful. I kept hoping Jack would live and then she’d have to live on the streets with the irresponsible jerk. I hate that true love makes all things perfect crap. Well, not the Biblical version of true love, just the Hollywood version.
I like hearing it referred to as Dances With Wolves the Videogame.
My gut tells me this isn’t going to be nearly as big as they’re hoping. So far I haven’t spoken to one person who thinks it even looks interesting and while that’s too small a sampling to really make or break the box office I don’t think it’s encouraging. I’ll go see it because it’s shiny and I’m easy to entertain. Though I am going in knowing it’s politically probably going to annoy me with the Commie-wood standards; evil Americans, evil corporation, evil military, wonderful evolved enviromentalist who are in touch with the earth.
Plan to “vote with my feet” on this one. Have liked Cameron’s films in the past – thought Titanic was “so-so – but half a bil on “Dances with Aliens?” Give me a break!
I don’t believe in judging movies until I see them. I mean, the reservations you guys cite over the story are *exactly* the ones I had for “Battle for Terra” based on the previews, but it ended up being a surprisingly good movie that really had almost nothing to do with the ‘ecological fable with big bad white Americans’ that the previews made it look like. (Review: http://republibot.com/content/movie-review-%E2%80%9C-battle-terra%E2%80%9D ) This one could be like that: They make it seem like it’s their Evangelical Environmental Duty to go see it, but then it turns out the aliens are evil and need to be destroyed, or something. Dunno, you know?
Definitely I’ll go see it when I get the opportunity.
Nope not a chance. I simply cannot take another movie about evil American imperialism, greed and oil (or whatever that shiny rock that is so valuable is called). I have to disagree with R3.0 on “Battle for Terra”. All that stuff was in it, just more subtle then “Avatar” appears to be.
If anyone needs me, I’ll be in my culture bunker.
I agree. “Fool me once, shame on you…” etc. If Hollywood wants a date with me, they better darn well court me a little.
And yet, it might not actually have any evil american stuff in it. It might be the most unexpectedly right wing movie of all time. It probably isn’t, but since none of us have see it yet, we can’t really say, can we?
It’s a slippery slope letting your politics dictate your entertainment choices before even considering if it’s something you’d like to see. I mean, how many liberals refused to see GI Joe because they were convinced it was flag waving pro-American propaganda? Do we want to be as stupid as them?
Hmmmm considering that it was the people who had been fans of GI Joe ever since there was a GI Joe who were upset…
I don’t remember a lefty screetching about the movie being pro American. I do remember reading it was a pro UN piece of garbage and was nothing like the toon or anything else….hence people’s upset at it.
I never really understand that argument, R3. Are you saying that you shouldn’t decide whether to see a movie until after you’ve seen it? (I know next to nothing about Cameron or Avatar, so this is more of a general question.)
Doesn’t it make more sense to expect that track records help you to make predictions, and that how—for example—a film is cast and marketed are signals to the public about what the movie’s like?
Also, does “don’t judge a movie by its trailer” work both ways? Should I hesitate to see the latest movie by my favorite director because I might be (unpleasantly) surprised?
Yeah, no offense R3.0, I like your site and all but I’m not falling for it. I recently gave Flash Forward a try, only to have a German character talk about how evil the US is (and no one could think of anything to say in response) and eye rolling at the bubble headed Christian woman and so on before I bailed. Going back a bit farther, Heroes I knew was going to stink, then they called Superman a fascist. CSI, Law and Order, District 9… SG:U (which is on the fence but I’m still watching and enjoy) with its portrayal of every relationship as dysfunctional except the lesbian one which is supremely loving and caring and real… oooh aaaaah… so progressive, how nice.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…
Skip CSI isn’t that progressive. Did you see the White House episode? You’d be shocked.
I thought he was saying the same thing, Mike.
I agree with your checklist and I’ll add one more; are these people who I feel deserve my hard-earned money? Let’s take “Oh Brother, Where Art Thou” as an example. George Clooney has said enough goofy things to convince me that he probably resents most everything about who I am, what I do and what I hold dear. So, I really have no desire to help George Clooney increase his wealth. The Cohen Brothers have consistently made movies I like. I know nothing about their political views or what they think of what I hold dear. There’s an 80+% chance I will feel like I got my money’s worth when I pay to see a Cohen Brothers movie so they get my money.
Now, if the Cohen Brothers come out tomorrow and say they hate the U.S. Military, or Christians, or apple pie, maybe I change my mind. Or, if their movie also has Michael Moore and Janeanne Garrafallo I’ll probably change my mind; especially if either of them disrobes in the film.
Well we know Cameron is an anti American leftwing nutjob so my money is be prepared to be told if you are a white male and in the military you are an evil doer. And of course the allegory about hugging terrorists. I hate Cameron. I despise him. Doughy faced shallow narcissistic turd.
Cameron seems to be a walking contradiction. While Avatar seems to be exactly what we’re all expecting (and he can’t seem to get out from under the shadow of Vietnam and its allegories), in a New Yorker article that was recently published, he describes himself as such:
Cameron’s imagination was shaped by the Cold War; the threat of nuclear annihilation is a recurring theme. But he also admires the military and its accessories. “I suppose you could say I believe in peace through superior firepower,” he told me. “I don’t believe that the human race is going to suddenly evolve to the point that we can all join hands and sing ‘Kumbaya.’ ” He learned to shoot—shotguns, assault rifles, pistols—in the early eighties, when he was writing “The Terminator.” “I didn’t want to write like an idiot, based on some kind of comic-book knowledge,” he said. “I do a lot of things in the pursuit of creating a patina of reality in what is basically fantasy.” He has continued his education, training with a handgun expert on a course with pop-up targets, and spending a lot of time in the desert with his friends, shooting up watermelons and jalopies with an AK-47.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/10/26/091026fa_fact_goodyear?currentPage=all
And on the Home Theater Forum, his longtime DVD producer had this to say in response to someone’s comments about The Abyss:
“I’m sure you know Jim Cameron has the utmost respect for the Military… one of his brothers was in the first Gulf War even as we were shooting T2.”
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/274613/the-abyss/30#post_3517316
He even makes fun of Sigourney Weaver’s anti-gun views on the Aliens DVD commentary, stating “Another liberal bites the dust” after she learned to like working with weapons.
I don’t know anything about the guy, but I know I don’t want to have a beer and hang out with a guy who uses phrases like, “patina of reality.”
I would’ve said “modicum” or “sliver” myself.
I thought Avatar was being referred to as “Dances with Smurfs?” At least, that what we call it in the Right household. Will not drop money on this. There are very few films these days that I will actually go see in the theater, and this isn’t one of them. The last film I saw in a movie theater was Zombieland. Loved it! And Pandorum for my birthday – loved it too!
I’ve had enough with the whole “corporations acting all corporationy in their corporation buildings” theme. Enough with the revisionist history portraying America as an imperialist tyrant. I’ll wait and invest in a good story without the Marxist preaching, thank you very much. Merry Christmas!
Avatar early review:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091211/ap_en_mo/us_film_review_avatar
Note some of these key phrases:
“‘Avatar’ takes place in the year 2154 on the faraway moon of Pandora, where, befitting its mythological name, the ills of human life have been released. The Earth depleted, humans have arrived to mine an elusive mineral, wryly dubbed Unobtainium.”
Wasn’t Unobtainium the name of the metal used for the mining ship in “The Core”?
“At the top of the chain of command is the CEO-like Carter Selfridge (an excellent, ruthless Giovanni Ribisi), who’s hellbent on showing quarterly profits for shareholders.”
“Their tails (oh, yes, they also have tails) even connect — like nature’s USB port — to things like mystical willow branches, horse manes or the hair of pterodactyl-like birds.”
Okay, not really political but extremely stupid sounding.
“…is essentially a fairy tale that imagines a more favorable outcome for the oppressed fighting against the technology and might of Western Civilization.”
“Quaritch, drinking coffee during a bombing with a cavalier callousness like Robert Duvall in “Apocalypse Now,” drops phrases like “pre-emptive strike,” “fight terror with terror” and even “shock and awe,”…”
“The message of environmentalism and of (literal) tree-hugging resonates…”
Quack Quack.
Wow! There is nothing in there that comes close to getting me to part with one thin dime, let alone 2 + hours of my life.
Usually wait to see what NRO or Weekly Standard says about a film, before I’ll hand over the dough to see a flick.
Although, if the film looks cool enough in the trailer, I’d probably go see it, no matter what. Avatar didn’t pass the trailer test for me.
Oh, yeah, and add the bleeding heart spin to the colossally expensive flick – just imagine how many mouths could have been fed with half a billion dollars. But, hey, the greens want fewer folks on good ol’ planet earth, anyway.
@ Mike: I’m saying that if a trailer interests me, I go see the movie, and if it doesn’t, then I don’t. This one has lots of eye-candy and aliens and nifty space ships and fightin’ space marines, all of which I’m kind of a sucker for, so my going to see the movie is a no-brainer.
Knowing stuff about the cast, crew, producer, director, and writers can help make an informed choice. For instance, no matter how cool a trailer looks, I avoid Michael Bay movies and Bruckheimer movies because they invariably suck. No matter how bad a trailer looks, if it’s by the Cohen Brothers, I’ll go see it because they’re almost always good. I generally avoid Tom Cruise because he generally makes Tom Cruise movies, and I don’t really like ‘em, regardless of who’s making them. Ditto Keanu Reeves, but with somewhat more exceptions for him, because while he always sucks, he’s also almost always the weakest thing in the film, hence the film itself might not suck (But generally does.)
Well, R3, it sounds like you do believe in judging movies before you see them, after all.
Jerry Bruckheimer sucks? Wait a second. This is the guy whose CSI shows often hold a subtext of conservative commentary. This is the guy who is an unabashed patriot. He does not suck. His shows are fun, and when I leave I don’t feel like I spent 2 hours hearing about how bad I suck.
As far as Cameron goes if he admires our military so much why the f does he portray the Marines like he is in this total suck fest?
@ Mighty Skip: Well thanks for the nice words on my site, but some of what you said seems a little unfair to me – The Nazi war criminal was portrayed as a bad man, who said bad things, and played the system to his own advantage. What, you expected a Nazi to say nice things about the country that defeated him and threw him in jail for a generation? What, you expected federal agents to waste time debating morality with a Nazi war criminal? Nah. They were there to get info, he played ‘em, and got away with it because they made the wrong decision. There was never any indication that he wasn’t evil, or that the US *was* evil. He was just a bad man who – crazy coincidence – did bad things. Ther’s a lot of stuff to dislike FF for – more every new episode, the show is failing quickly – but I don’t see that episode as being one of ‘em. I am annoyed by the Lesbian relationship in the show.
I’d also maintain that not everyone on SGU is dysfunctional. Lt. Scott had a rough past, but has made the best of it, and is doing pretty good for himself. Chloe seems perfectly functional. Sgt. Greer has some anger management problems, but they’re mostly in check, he’s fiercely loyal, and seems entirely functional despite his messed-up past. Eli doesn’t seem dysfunctional to me, he’s just a fairly typical fat-assed geek slacker. I am annoyed by the lesbian relationship in the show.
@ ScottDS: Yeah, Cameron is an odd cat. He’s very good at what he does, and on some issues he’s on the right, on others he’s on the left. He’s also fairly interesting, and has used a *lot* of his money to fund deep-sea dives on the Titanic to do more research (Conclusion: Yeah, it definitely sank!) and to fun biblical archeology, though most of his biblical conclusions are ones no reputable Archeologist would agree with, one or two points might be on the money.
@ The Mighty Skip: “Unobtainium” (Also occasionaly called “Inobtanium” or “Handwavium”) is an old engineering joke for any nonexistent element that happens to have ludicrous strength, or exactly the improbably qualities a job calls for.
@ Kenn: well, here I’m with you. Half a Billion would have fed a bunch of people for a very long time, but eventually they would have gotten hungry again, whereas a movie like “Avatar” is forever and important. [sarcasm] Even so, I remember talking to a friend of mine once about how Star Wars cost $10 million to make, and my friend was aghast. “It’s sinful they spent that much money on a movie! Why would they do such a thing?” I pointed out that the movie made $235 million (At that time), and she said ‘oh, I never thought of that.’ Cameron’s gone massively overbudget on every film he’s helmed, and it’s always paid off for him, so I guess the studio decided to back a longshot given that his record is good. I mean, if they’re right, and this pays off, then they’ve made a billion or more bucks. If they’re wrong, and this is the new Metropolis or Cleopatra, well, “You’ll never eat lunch in this town again.”
I *AM* wondering if they backed the film because they believed in it, or if it’s just a situation that got horribly out of control, like Sony dropping a hundred million bucks and a decade on that crappy Michael Jackson album “Invincible” which immediately bombed.
To everyone: Please understand that I’m not defending a film I haven’t seen yet. It might suck, and if it does, I’ll be the first to admit it. But it looks shiny, so I’m going to go gawk at it when I get the chance.
Hot Air had an article with a lefty-reviewer who just loved it, don’tcha know: http://minx.cc/?post=295747
After reading the review, not only will I not spend money seeing this, I won’t see it for free, either! There’s 2+ hours of my life I don’t have to waste on propaganda! Yippee!
I think once the lookie loos go home and the word spreads about the politics of this crapfest, it will sink, nestling down at the bottom of the sewage line with the other anti-war bombs.
Well John at Big Hollywood trashed this suckfest. He deserves a medal for having to see these crapfests!
I wholeheartedly agree with posting this still from South Park to represent Avatar. In fact, I think anytime you write a post referencing Avatar, you should use the same banner pic. Without a doubt.
Oh, BTW, re: the comment I posted above, Hot Air had a link to Ace of Spades blog, which had the quoted review. Just to clarify. Happy Hanukkah!
All this time I thought we were talking about the last airbender. Boy am I disappointed.
The trailer alone tells me its a $500B cartoon version of Zinn’s graphic
garbagenovel The People’s History of American Empire.A lot of people will be suckered into it. People like Carl Horowitz who fail to grasp that Hollywood’s current contingent has a very specific agenda that goes far beyond simple storytelling.
I don’t want to fork out what limited income I have just to have the nation that stood against slavery, Nazism and Communism, turned into the futuristic equivalent of murderous Nazis.
The fact that Cameron inserts what is the equivalent of 9/11 Truther insanity into this steaming pile of PC scat is enough to make me wish that Cameron, Twentieth-Century Fox, and everyone associated with this lose everything.
“But it looks shiny, so I’m going to go gawk at it when I get the chance.”
What you really mean is that you’ve been lead to believe that there’s a bicycle inside that pile of manure and you’ll be damned if anyone is going to convince you otherwise. Have fun digging.
The trailer is supposed to be the best bits of the story in order to entice me into the theater. Avatar’s 3 minute-long trailer just makes me angry. That it turns the entire “Marine” Corps into the genocidal loons, should be enough to keep any self-respecting American away. I say, let Cameron make his money in Eurabia. They’ll eat this crap up and come back begging for seconds.
BTW, 2012, which goes out of its way to destroy Christian and American landmarks – it’s making 3/4 of its money in Europe. If you count just domestic American audience – 2012 is a monumental flop.
The films budget (an obscene $500 MILLION!) rested on the idea that Cameron could not only replicate TITANIC’s success, but move beyond it. It needs to gross a BILLION dollars just to break even.
I think it will go down as a mega-flop. And News Corp and 20th Century Fox are not going to be happy.
I predict Bill O’Reilly to be using 4 concrete blocks and a wood panel as a desk within the month.
BTW, where did this silly idea of not “pre-judging” movies before we’ve seen them come from? Isn’t that why they create trailers in the first place; so people can pre-judge whether or not a film is worth one’s time and money?
“Wow, that looks cool. I think I’ll check it out.” (R-3.0)
“Good gravy, that looks like a steaming pile of America bashing manure. I’d rather clean Fat Bastard’s toilet than sit through Cameron’s PC revenge fantasy.” (almost everyone else)
Maybe James Cameron was one time a deep-down conservative but Titanic’s success sent his head way far up his ass.
@ Daniel: If it’s a bicycle or a turd, I’ll know when I see it, right? You don’t want to find out, you don’t have to go. All I’m saying is “don’t turn every movie you don’t want to see into a political manifesto.”
I run a Science Fiction website, remember? I like science fiction. I review it fairly, and I’m beholden to no one. If I don’t like it, I say so, if I do like it, I say so, in both cases completely regardless to what other people think. I am not going to be one of those people who says “Oh, gee, this movie might possibly conflict with my deeply-held views on Federal redistricting, and therefore I’m not going to take the chance on seeing it.”
My *job* (Which I enjoy) is to review this stuff, and tell people if it’s good, or if it’s bad, or if it’s a near-miss, or whatever. It would be inappropriate for me to review a movie in my head before I see it, can we all agree on that?
Perhaps I’m guilty of being over-strident in this conversation, perhaps I’m shipping my reviewer-bias on people who have no interest in such things. If so, I’m wrong and I apologize, but I’ve never quite understood the concept of being reactionary *to entertainment.* I mean, it’s a movie, what does it matter? If it was a Michael Moore movie, or if the money was going to Al Quaida, I could understand it, but it’s not – it’s just a vanity project for a Canadian dude. Meanwhile, Big Hollywood runs an article a few months back praising Torchwood – the gayest, most perverted, most offensive, incoherently written show on TV – for being “Pro American” (Which it isn’t, not in the least). I mean, come on, shouldn’t we think for ourselves rather than let pundits on either side make up our minds for us?
R3 you don’t understand why we all hope this crashes and burns like a sopwith camel shot down by the Red Baron. Its insulting. Regardless of genre and your job as a reviewer it is insulting. It is anti American and it stabs our military, our history, our freaking identity in the heart. You need to understand that. I hope this movie crashes so badly Cameron loses everything. You act like Benedict Arnold you deserve to reep the rewards.
1) James Cameron is Canadian, not American.
2) Have you seen the movie? Because I haven’t seen a single person in this thread – myself included – who’s actually seen it yet, so all our comments are being made in ignorance.
R3, I think you’re coming at this from your perspective as a reviewer. Since you’re obviously going to see it in order to review it, it makes no sense to go into it with any kind of prejudice.
The rest of us may or may not see it, and we’ll decide based upon the trailers, commercials, reviews, and whether or not we like the genre, director, actors, screenwriter, etc. Or based on a whim, just ’cause it’s our money.
Unlike you, we have no duty to see any film. If it turns out you think it’s great, let me know why you think so, here or at Republibot, and that’ll be another piece of data I can weigh in making a decision. (I can always decide to see a movie later, but I can’t get my money back from Cameron.)
R3 are you saying the whole Marines are fascists thing we all saw in the trailer? WOW. Isn’t a trailer, as Daniel so succinctly put it an advertisment to tell us to come waste our cash at this suckfest? Are we supposed to ignore the shot across the bow John Nolte took at it? R3 a lot of people many who have been hanging out together for years here and at Libertas and Dirty Harry’s Place have a lot of respect for John Nolte. He knows what he saw and what he saw and reported on is nothing more than a giant f-u to everything that makes us who we are and what we are. Do not call any of us ignorant for seeing the trailer, hearing the reports made by people we know and trust and not wanting to see this suckfest. Sorry but I am not one of those people who want to be told I should have leftist propaganda that I know is leftist propaganda shoved down my throat because I haven’t friggen seen it.
“…all our comments are being made in ignorance.”
Why should we change the way we do things now?
@ Mike: Yeah, I kind of admited to that myself when I said >>>Perhaps I’m guilty of being over-strident in this conversation, perhaps I’m shipping my reviewer-bias on people who have no interest in such things. If so, I’m wrong and I apologize, but I’ve never quite understood the concept of being reactionary<<<
@ Stephanie: "Ignorant" means one lacks information. I claim ignorance on a whole lot of things: I'm ignorant of the inner workings of Catholicism, I'm ignorant of German poetry, I'm ignorant of the finer points of Bantu culture. I'm also ignorant as to what this movie is all about, and so are you, because neither of us have seen it. The only significant difference between us on this point is that I'm willing to reserve judgement until after I've seen it, and you're content to rely on second and third-hand information. Well, that *and* you seem to like to attack me no matter what I say about anything, regardless of any dictates of facts or politeness. It's gotten so bad that if I said "Bill Clinton was a bad man," I'm fairly certain you'd instantly accuse me of character assasination and go on to claim he was secretly a Republican the whole time.
I've been extremely nice about your venom. I've ignored it, I've blown it off as a joke, I've even made repeated and honest overtures to bury the hatchet and try to work out some kind of middleground between us, and even other people on the site have told you to just knock it off, but, of course, you won't.
Fine. Whatever. You've got issues. You don't like people who disagree with you. You're an angry person. I get it. I'm sorry for you. I hope you find some peace. I've prayed that you'll find some way to express yourself beyond blinding anger. But until that day comes, I'd politely request that you either Email me at three@republibot.com so we can figure out some way beyond our obvious personality conflict, or else you please just stop bugging me.
Sooooo…the guy who wants to make an informed choice is wrong, and the ones who want to make a reactionary choice based on hearsay are right? Ok, glad we got that straightened out. Swell. I guess we’re done here.
R3, I don’t get what you’re not understanding. If someone reads, for example, John Nolte’s review and because he trusts Nolte’s judgment decides not to see a movie, what’s wrong with that?
Of course it’s “hearsay.” That’s what movie reviews are, no?
Again, you seem to be presenting yourself as above this sort of thing, but as you’ve admitted that there are directors and actors whose films you avoid you’re just coming across as asserting that your prejudice is rational and everyone else’s as irrational.
Not necessarily Bot… some of us don’t want to spend $22.00 (two adult tix) on a movie that will most likely piss me off — and not in a righteous way. I trust NOlte to give a straight up review. I used to trust Ebert before cancer + lifetime of Leftism addled his brain permanently.
It’s called reconnaissance and it’s a time-tested method of scouting out ground. If I get reports (including yours) that balance out Nolte’s review then I’ll be more inclined. If Cameron commits the cardinal of NOT BEING ENTERTAINING then I’ll avoid it like the plague. Any movie that is preachy is usually by definition not entertaining.
That’s not reactionary — that’s a term people reserve for those who are deemed less enlightened. I like you, but you are hardly more enlightened than the rest of us.
Early reviews from people on our side of the aisle are calling it a stinker. I wouldn’t mind being happily surprised, but I also find it hard to work up any enthusiasm for this movie, because every sign so far is that it is exactly what it has advertised itself to be. I’ll give Cameron credit that he isn’t trying to hide it. Everyone has talked about the plot. So, no, no one who’s seen anything about this movie is really going in blind. There’s a whole lot of info out there about it and some reviews from people who can be trusted to give an honest appraisal. Still, thank you, R3, for taking one for the team. Tell us how it turns out.
But of course.