Waterbored Pt. Deux
Earlier I posted on Mancow Muller’s having himself waterboarded during his radio show.
His verdict: Waterboarding is torture. I have no qualms with this verdict — I haven’t been waterboarded so who am I to tell him what it is or isn’t. He has since appeared on Keith Olbermann (now that’s torture) and has posted on it over at Big Hollywood here. His post is entitled “Bored Bloggers Are All Wet.” Now this strikes me as a smidge disingenuous. He’s dropping the chickenhawk card it seems to me. He writes:
This is an ugly issue with no easy answers. But I now see it’s easier for some to dismiss me than to do any real soul searching on this very heady issue.
No one I’ve read dismisses Muller’s verdict and just because we haven’t been waterboarded and decided it’s not “torture” doesn’t mean no one has done soul searching. I don’t need to be crucified to know that it is brutal and inhumane and not fit for a civilized society as a punishment. I therefore reject the verdict of someone who nearly drowned as a child and had to be revived. I’m crazy like that. Give me someone without water issues and then give me a verdict.
My main problem with Muller is his use of the word “torture”. He’s a professional communicator and thus knows the power of words. “Torture” is a politically loaded word which also has a legal definition. By using that word “torture” he fans the flames of the debate and generates a lot of publicity for his radio show.
He says he would waterboard Islamist terrorists to protect his daughters. That example is a red herring because the protection is based on principle — not on what an individual father would do. I’d do a lot of things to protect my kids that wouldn’t be fit for foreign policy. That’s all well and good, but if that’s the case then he is also on weak footing for condoning the use of illegal means. The point of the Bush Administration memos is a sincere belief (based on principle — not emotion) that enhanced interrogation techniques are needed, “torture” is to be avoided, and that waterboarding is NOT “torture” and thus legal. By confusing either unintentionally or intentionally “abject fear” with “torture” Muller does no one a service here except the Left and his radio show.
I also find his complaint that the Left is twisting his words to be rich. He writes:
The left has taken my message and distorted it as well. Would I waterboard to save my daughters (or any American children)? Yes!
The three terrorists that were waterboarded at Guantanamo were done so by military professionals. And it was done to save lives with America’s best interests at heart. Mine was a silly radio time filler in comparison. It’s apples & hand grenades!
Here’s two suggestions… First: Don’t go on Olbermann’s show so Olby can emit ejaculatory utterances of the word “torture” and then complain when no one hears your “but”. Second: — call it “frightening”, “terrifying”, “awful”, “soul rending”. If Muller really think it’s torture, then arguing it should be used on terror suspects anyway is against the concept of the rule of law. If he was careful with his verbiage he might not have generated as much publicity — which was probably the point anyway. And the last quote also shows he thinks American soldiers torture — the lack of a distinction is important — politically and morally
I will agree that it is psychological torture, but the important distinction is that it’s not physical torture. There is no physical damage done to the person’s body.
So in regards to waterboarding, the question becomes: is it acceptable to psychologically torture our enemies without physically torturing them, in order to keep our citizens safe? In my opinion, the answer is yes.
I agree JimmyC. The psych/physical distinction is important. Sleep deprivation, etc. loud music, etc. could lead to serious physical harm, but submitting someone to sleep deprivation that your average medical resident undergoes or rock music at levels that the average iPod budded teen hears hours a day hardly qualify.
How about those poor guys at the Iraqi prison who had panties put on their heads? Doesn’t that recall old college dorm activities?
I know what torture is…..wait until you read my note at facebook when I finally get control of the twitching in my face the urgent need to lash out wildly at anyone sporting flannel, a ratty squirrel tail “beard” and buck teeth. Then I will tell you what real torture is. I feel like shouting out I was a human being once………
Is this the same “Mancow” who, back in ‘95 or so, after Clinton delayed traffic at L.A. International to get a haircut, got fired for pulling the stunt of blocking traffic on the Bay Bridge in S.F. to get a haircut himself? Or am I thinking of another talentless radio clown?
I hope there aren’t two Mancows. What would happen if they bred?
I clicked over to read his story and was disappointed to find that it was little more than what you excerpted, Floyd. I’d honestly hoped to see the results of his soul-searching.
Here’s one question I’d have liked him to think about and answer honestly.
“Now that you know exactly what waterboarding feels like, consider this hypothetical question. If you knew it would result in a permanent doubling of your ratings, would you go through it again?”
No saving the lives of his daughters, no patriotic duty, just ratings. If he said he would do it again for the ratings, then it isn’t torture. It could be as unpleasant and even painful as he says, but if he’d do it again then it’s no worse than getting his chest waxed to promote “rainforest awareness.”
The other day at “First Things” I read an essay denouncing waterboarding, and it really made some good points—ones not easily dismissed. And then the author had to go and wash away all the goodwill I had for him by talking about the consequences of resorting “to the blowtorch and the pliers.”
If you have to resort to those kinds of debating tactics, I really don’t care to consider your argument. It’s obvious that even you know you’re on shaky ground. I could study your argument and find the places where it was weak, or I could save some time and dismiss you out of hand as being dishonest. And I’m lazy.
Yeah, but tell me that after the Gitmo scum saw all of this stuff about waterboarding on the news over the years, that it didn’t cease to be an effective psychological tool. It only became a psychological tool at that point for the far left, to get then up in arms about it. When you’re watching CNN cover waterboarding while in prison, you realize that they’re not really going to drown you, so you’re not as psychologically affected. The main factor for any kind or torture to work is for disfigurement, maiming, or death to be in the equation.
Am I crazy, Floyd, or is Mancow’s headline a direct slap in your face? Did he then drop the glove at your feet?
I think we might have ourselves a little feud starting! My father’s Polish, but I’m a Scot on my mother’s side, and nothing brightens my day like a little inter-clan warfare.
Clàr Innis!
It’s funny… I didn’t take it as a direct swipe at my post. If it is, then he didn’t even have the common courtesy to give me a reach… er… a link. Sorry — almost slipped into Full Metal Jacket mode. I bet he doesn’t have the balls to bring me on his radio show. of course I wouldn’t brink in any ratings either.
Ach, man. You can nae be tellin’ me I’m on my own?
Well, a Buchanan ne’er missed a chance of a fight, yet! I’ll have tae do it myself.
Clàr Innis!